<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Hi all,</div><div><br></div>Surely something similar to HotCocoa could be possible: <a href="http://www.macruby.org/trac/wiki/HotCocoa">http://www.macruby.org/trac/wiki/HotCocoa</a> - apart from a few bugs, and limited functionality (so far) it works very well.<div><br></div><div>Another interesting GUI project (+ cross platform) is Why's 'Shoes': <a href="http://github.com/why/shoes/tree/master">http://github.com/why/shoes/tree/master</a></div><div><br></div><div>I've completed a couple of projects with cappuccino and I think it's barking up the wrong tree for this problem.</div><div><br></div><div>Best wishes,</div><div><br></div><div>Chris</div><div><br></div><div>- sent this a few days ago but it didn't arrive on the list :( </div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div>On 8 Jan 2009, at 01:10, Alexander Repenning wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><a href="http://cappuccino.org/">http://cappuccino.org/</a> </div><div>+ looks like a great web dev tools</div><div>- only a web dev tool</div><div>- objective-j is pretty snappy for basic UI stuff but would be hard pressed for performance 3D OpenGL rendering</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>SWT</div><div>+ is pretty solid</div><div>+ does have the native look and feel which is important to us </div><div>+ is much more snappy than Java Swing</div><div>- potentially tricky integration with JOGL (OpenGL) to get 3D working</div><div>- JVM, JRE overhead is considerable</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Ideally, we would have a GUI wrapper that provides good access to Cocoa on OS X. We like Cocoa now ;-) Cocoa may also be a way to move to iPhone iPod Touch. What would fit our needs the best would just be anything working on Windows making simplifying creating compatible, Cocoa-esque wrappers for Windows. An officially Apple supported tool such as this (<a href="http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/A35C23B9-BD22-4478-BC30-4111CFC360B5.html)">http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/A35C23B9-BD22-4478-BC30-4111CFC360B5.html)</a> would be ideal.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Alex</div><br><div><div>On Jan 4, 2009, at 2:44 AM, Gary Byers wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><br><br>On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Ron Garret wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 2, 2009, at 11:30 AM, Alexander Repenning wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">This may be a good moment to discuss some of the ideas regarding the creation of LUI, the "Lisp User Interface as a cross platform, but Mac first" open source GUI tool.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">At this point a very early prototype exists for CCLmac Intel/PPC with classes implemented in Cocoa including: buttons, windows, sliders, labels, editable text, images, sound, speech, Web browser view, OpenGL, ..<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">The main question is how to bring this to Windows or more specifically to CCL windows. Who has some ideas, time to hack stuff, experience with Windows lisp hacking etc. Some ideas tossed around so far are: Cocotron, GNUstep, native win32, .NET,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><a href="http://cappuccino.org/">http://cappuccino.org/</a><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">rg<br></blockquote><br>Another candidate that's worth looking at is SWT<br>(<<a href="http://www.eclipse.org/swt/">http://www.eclipse.org/swt/</a>>).<br><br>Some advantages:<br><br> - it's mature, relatively featureful, and supports native look-and-feel<br> on a wide variety of platforms<br><br> - it's largely implemented in native (non-Java) code; performance issues<br> that may have affected other Java UI toolkits apparently don't affect<br> SWT<br><br> - there's a small army of people working on it and there are many<br> commercial and open-source projects (including Eclipse) that depend on<br> it<br><br>Some disadvantages:<br><br> - SWT's OSX support is still 32-bit and Carbon based, though the intent is<br> to provide 64-bit (I think ...) Cocoa support (I'm sure) in the next<br> release<br><br> - CCL's support for Java is embryonic; it's not clear if or how it'd<br> be possible to do some of the things (subclassing foreign classes at<br> runtime, etc.) that're possible in ObjC, and it'd probably require some<br> thought to determine how best to integrate Java and CCL.<br><br>What support is there (in the trunk) is a port of Rich Hickey's 'jfli'<br>Java<->CL interface which seems complete enough to run a very simple<br>SWT demo. (Except for the 64-bit OSX issues, this demo should work on<br>all platforms that CCL 1.3 will run on, assuming that the SWT classes<br>and shared libs can be found.) How near or how far that is from<br>providing a useful and usable portability layer (does "write once, run<br>anywhere" sound familiar ?) is hard to know.<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; -khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Prof. Alexander Repenning</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">University of Colorado</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Computer Science Department</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Boulder, CO 80309-430</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">vCard: <a href="http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf">http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~ralex/AlexanderRepenning.vcf</a></font></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span></div></span> </div><br><span><ATT00001.txt></span></div></blockquote></div><br><div apple-content-edited="true"> <span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="font-size: 8px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 8px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 8px; ">...........................................................................</span></span></div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div>Chris McClelland</div><div>Sonic Arts Research Centre</div><div>Queens University Belfast</div><div>BT7 1NN</div><div>Tel: 02890974445</div><div>Email: <a href="mailto:c.mcclelland@qub.ac.uk">c.mcclelland@qub.ac.uk</a></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></div></span></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>