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Alexander Repenning wrote:
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:F8FCCC24-EFC5-4B6E-B6F3-421EAB56CD34@cs.colorado.edu"><br>
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<div>I can see that for some experienced Lisp users perhaps the
command line or SLIME may be fine but this simply does not work to
attract new programmers at any meaningful level. CS students are used
to Visual Studio and Eclipse these days.</div>
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</blockquote>
There is a Lisp plugin for Eclipse called "cusp", which talks to the
same<br>
Swank backend as SLIME does. It basically works but could stand<br>
a lot of improvement. I would love to see someone do this; I'm sorry<br>
I can't do it myself.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:F8FCCC24-EFC5-4B6E-B6F3-421EAB56CD34@cs.colorado.edu">
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<div> They would not even call the CCL IDE an IDE. There is something
to be said for a simple IDE such as the one MCL supported. I
have successfully gotten students interested in that one but I have
NEVER seen a student getting into Lisp via command line/SLIME kinds of
interfaces. Even most browsers, e.g., Safari, have built in IDEs with
JavaScript REPL, breakpoints, object inspectors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If an IDE a non-essential gimmick why do you even use SLIME? Why
not program with punch cards. I am not even sure where all this back to
the basics comes from. Certainly not from Lisp. Lisp actually invented
many of the great IDE concepts. Remember the Symbolics? What is this
race to the bottom all about?</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
Not to mention that Warren Teitelman, who can be said to have invented<br>
the whole concept of the IDE, was doing it in Lisp (InterLisp).<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:F8FCCC24-EFC5-4B6E-B6F3-421EAB56CD34@cs.colorado.edu">
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I go to the example folder and pick them
randomly, really.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Your criticism of the state of the demos may be valid or not (I haven't<br>
tried them), but I think you should have prepared your demo better.<br>
</div>
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I could have shown a nice Lisp demo on my machine but that was not the
point.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
I have to say that I'm quite surprised that the demos were in such bad
shape,<br>
given the extremely high quality of excellence I see every day from
Clozure.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:F8FCCC24-EFC5-4B6E-B6F3-421EAB56CD34@cs.colorado.edu">
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
Lisp communities are small and most projects often don't have enough<br>
man-power (and/or varied system environments exposure) to keep all<br>
aspects of their software in good shape, so it should become second<br>
nature to prepare and double-check a demo before showing it to someone.<br>
</div>
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<div>Ask yourself: WHY are the Lisp communities so small? It is
because Lisp has gotten a bad reputation suggesting that it is hard to
use. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It may be some work to fix a non working example to be sure but
I would claim it is better to hide broken stuff from new users.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I agree very strongly with both of these points. In the medium-run,
it's valuable<br>
for Clozure and others to aim their products at beginners as well as at<br>
high-powered experienced users. We all have to try to increase the size<br>
of the Lisp user community.<br>
<br>
If anyone hasn't seen my Drupal blog/forum at ilc2009.scheming.org, it<br>
is intended to discuss the future of Lisp, and deals with some of these<br>
kinds of issues. I'd be grateful for anyone's participation.<br>
<br>
-- Dan<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:F8FCCC24-EFC5-4B6E-B6F3-421EAB56CD34@cs.colorado.edu">
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<div>alex</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div><br>
Leslie<br>
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<br>
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<p style="margin: 0px;"><font size="3" face="Helvetica" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 12px; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">Prof. Alexander Repenning</font></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;">University of Colorado</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Computer Science Department</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Boulder, CO 80309-430</p>
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