<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>Am 07.09.2009 um 18:52 schrieb Terje Norderhaug:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Sep 4, 2009, at 3:23 AM, Glen Foy wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">On Sep 3, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Ron Garret wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">IMHO, being able to actually run the more compact form would be a big<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">win for pedagogical purposes if nothing else.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Many of us come from an MCL background, Clozure as well as list<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">members. We are used to MCL's lean, even Spartan IDE. We know that a<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Lisp System doesn't need a lot of bells and whistles to be really<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">powerful.<br></blockquote><br>I am in the camp preferring a more spartan, focused IDE for myself, <br>with just the functionality I need. But I can see the attraction of <br>toolbars etc. It could be useful to have a variety of IDEs on top of <br>a lisp environment, supporting the taste/needs of different developers.<br></div></blockquote><br></div><div><br></div><div>One of the attractions of MCL was/is that it was relatively simple, got some basic Lisp interaction right and was relatively easy to extend.</div><div><br></div><div>There are a few things I do not like about MCL:</div><div><br></div><div>* not everything is <b>easily</b> discoverable via the GUI. Lot's of editor commands for example.</div><div><br></div><div>* the code was not layered enough, low-level toolbox calls practically mixed into the code everywhere</div><div><br></div><div>* some basic things like source coloring were not part of the official version (though available as extensions)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I would wish that a basic Lisp IDE would be similarly clean, but slightly more visual.</div><div><br></div><div>If we go for a more radical redesign I don't think Eclipse is a good model. Lisp is interactive and symbolic at its core. An IDE should reflect this. If we use Eclipse, then we can use Java as well or maybe Eclipse with a Lisp plugin (CUSP).</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I'm an Apple user and some of my UI preferences are based on what Apple does with its UI design. Not everything, but I can see why Apple is doing some of their stuff and why it can make sense (like Dashboard, the Dock, iTunes, ...).</div><div><br></div><div>I would make my IDE user interface more like Apple Mail or iTunes. One basic element is 'live search'. 'live search' mixes well with Lisp, since we have a running Lisp image that can be queried. Another element is 'windows with some basic panes': overview, hierarchies, ... Libraries are large we need to find and navigate effectively. We need custom searches into the source or the live image.</div><div><br></div><div>I made a small presentation two years ago. Maybe somebody finds it useful:</div><div><br></div><div> <a href="http://lispm.dyndns.org/files/Lisp-IDE-for-Mac-OS-X.pdf">http://lispm.dyndns.org/files/Lisp-IDE-for-Mac-OS-X.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><div>But for now a simple, MCL-like IDE is fine.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Rainer Joswig</div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 14px; "><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Rainer Joswig, Hamburg, Germany</div><div><a href="http://lispm.dyndns.org/">http://lispm.dyndns.org/</a></div><div><a href="mailto:joswig@lisp.de">mailto:joswig@lisp.de</a></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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