[Openmcl-devel] CLIM2 on CCL

Mon Jul 25 09:42:49 PDT 2016

Some companies would distribute the sources to end users.

Symbolics for example did not really distribute the sources.
That they were available on a Genera distribution CDROM was called a 'mistake'. LispWorks did not make
their sources for CLIM 2 available at all. Franz allowed customers access to the sources, IIRC.
One could get the sources for the MCL variant CLIM 2 from Digitool. It did cost extra.
From what I remember, this version is owned by Alice Hartley. The MCL version of CLIM 2
hasn't been ported to CCL, at least I know no version of it.

So, for me it is not clear that Franz can 'open source' as free software. It would be great if that could be cleared up.

Here is a press release which explains the origins of this software:

---

	Contact:	Gary Roberts, Symbolics, Inc. (617) 221-1356
			Elizabeth Shook, Franz Inc. (510) 548-3600
			Bill York, ILA (415) 968-3656
			Jay Mellman, Lucid (415) 329-8400
			Jo Marks, Harlequin Ltd. +44-223 872 522

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

LEADING LISP VENDORS SUPPORT SINGLE CLIM 2.0 STANDARD

APRIL 23, 1992 -- The major CLIM(r) vendors, Franz, Harlequin,
International Lisp Associates (ILA), Lucid, and Symbolics, agreed on a
draft specification for the second generation of the graphics toolkit
technology. In addition, Franz, Harlequin, ILA, Lucid, and Symbolics
have signed a code-sharing agreement to share the cost of CLIM
development conforming to the specification.

CLIM is a portable, object-oriented set of facilities for developing
graphical user interfaces to Lisp-based applications. The second
generation CLIM 2.0 creates a truly platform-independent user
interface management system in which applications automatically adopt
the look and feel of the host environment.

The draft specification will be made available for public review at
the end of April 1992. Integration of public comments into a final
version of the specification will be moderated by Mark Son-Bell of
ILA, with the support of a committee of the Association of Lisp Users.

According to Saiid Zarrabian, Symbolics Vice President, "the
distribution of a CLIM 2.0 specification is a major step in
establishing CLIM as a standard. It will enable the vendors to get
critical feedback from end-users and other interested parties as well
as spark the interest of organizations uninvolved in CLIM to date."

Implementation code based on this CLIM 2.0 specification is being
distributed by Symbolics. Scott McKay of Symbolics and Chris
Richardson of Franz were the major contributors to the implementation,
based on prior work by Bill York and others at ILA.  Harlequin and
Lucid are preparing to make further contributions. Product should be
available to users during the second half of 1992.

CLIM is a registered trademark of International Lisp Associates. Other
brand or product names are trademarks of their respective holders.

---

Regards,

Rainer

> Am 25.07.2016 um 18:20 schrieb Craig Lanning <craig.t.lanning at gmail.com>:
> 
> That's an interesting question.
> 
> As you mentioned, the LICENSE file doesn't say directly, but I have
> seen comments other places "that the code has not been updated to work
> in other Lisp" environments, so that would indicate to me that they
> understand that for anyone to make use of it in "source or binary form"
> some changes will have to be made so that it can work in a specific
> Lisp.
> 
> I'll look and see if I can find someone to contact at Franz.  Maybe
> they can update the LICENSE file with language that would make it more
> clear what they intend.
> 
> Craig
> 
> On Mon, 2016-07-25 at 17:49 +0200, Rainer Joswig wrote:
>> Does the license allow derived versions? That's not clear to me.
>> It talks about "Redistribution and use in source and binary forms".
>> 
>> https://github.com/franzinc/clim2/blob/master/LICENSE
>> 
>>> 
>>> Am 25.07.2016 um 17:30 schrieb Craig Lanning <craig.t.lanning at gmail
>>> .com>:
>>> 
>>> Just recently, I found out that Franz, Inc. had released their
>>> CLIM2
>>> source code used in Allegro CL to GitHub
>>> (https://github.com/franzinc/clim2).  I have forked it (https://git
>>> hub.
>>> com/craigl64/clim2) and started trying to get it to compile in ccl.
>>> Hence my question a couple of weeks ago about Platform Specific
>>> GUI.
>>> 
>>> I received an answer, but have not gotten far enough to make use of
>>> it.
>>> 
>>> I am excited about this version of CLIM because I have built clim
>>> based
>>> interfaces before, but was only able to run them in LispWorks CLIM
>>> or
>>> Symbolics CLIM.  I tried to use McCLIM, but found that it didn't
>>> work
>>> the same way that Symbolics and LispWorks did.  Since Franz was one
>>> of
>>> the original developers (along with Symbolics and Harliquin) of the
>>> CLIM II Specification, I am hoping that this clim implementation is
>>> very similar, if not identical, to that used by Symbolics and
>>> Harliquin
>>> (now LispWorks).
>> 
>>> 
>>> I am targetting ccl because the ccl documentation talked about
>>> getting
>>> to platform specific graphical tookkits like cocoa/carbon,
>>> gtk2/gnome,
>>> win32/win64 and I am about to develop a CLIM based application that
>>> I
>>> need to run on MacOSX, Linux, and Windows.  I also like that if I
>>> can
>>> build the application in ccl, I can build both 32-bit and 64-bit
>>> versions on all three platforms.
>> 
>> The difficult part is to develop useful backends for macOS.
>> That's tough.
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I have not pushed any of my changes back to the GitHub repo in my
>>> account, yet.  I was trying to wait until I got it to compile.
>>> 
>>> I have run into a few issues.  One may be a side effect of how
>>> clim2
>>> was originally set up to build.  I may need to reorganize the
>>> sequence
>>> of how it gets built.
>>> 
>>> I will post additional messages to this list for the issues that I
>>> have
>>> run into so that they can be discussed individually.  This message
>>> was
>>> more of a kind of status report so that people would understand
>>> better
>>> why I asked that question a couple of weeks ago.
>>> 
>>> Craig Lanning
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Openmcl-devel mailing list
>>> Openmcl-devel at clozure.com
>>> https://lists.clozure.com/mailman/listinfo/openmcl-devel
>> 
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